The Daily Telegraph has started to get a bit alarmed over the EU status of Scotland after Independence. The article below shows that the point is being used against the SNP because of their Europhile stance. As usual the status of England is underepresented but Ian Campbell's letter on Saturday has sparked some interest.
The terms of the Act of Union 1707 are clear. What was created by the fusion of the Kingdoms of England and Scotland was a new Kingdom:- "The united Kingdom of Great Britain”. The current full title of the UK is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
So it is obvious to anyone who has a basic understanding of constitutional law that if the Kingdom of Great Britain is dissolved then, whatever our political masters might try to cobble together, the result will be a constitutionally different State. That new State will not have been a signatory State to the European Union. This is why as Mr Barroso has stated the new or “successor” States will be outside of the EU.
Focussing just on Scotland's position this was made clear by Lord Mackenzie-Stuart, a judge on the European Court of Justice (1973 -1988 ) and and the court's first British president (1984 - 88) "Independence would leave Scotland and something called 'the rest' in the same legal boat. If Scotland had to reapply, so would the rest. I am puzzled at the suggestion that there would be a difference in the status of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of Community law if the Act of Union was dissolved." (Scotland on Sunday, 8 March, 1992).
Such an outcome would be very good for any Eurosceptics (who are not fanatical Unionists!) because the end of the United Kingdom would therefore automatically result in the other "Successor States", like the newly independent England, also being out of the EU! This would apply to Northern Ireland too.
So if Scotland becomes independent, England would be free of the EU and free of paying our EU membership subs, currently £19.2 billion per year, and also free of paying Barnett Formula etc subsidies to Scotland of £32 billion per year (as calculated by the House of Lords)!
There is one curious wrinkle in the consequences of Scottish independence, which is that the Kingdom of England that would be left independent and as a "Successor State" incorporates Wales this is because the 1536 Act of Union between England and Wales predates the 1707 Union with Scotland.
"SNP acting like 'scoundrel' for rejecting Barroso's EU warning
SNP ministers have been accused of acting like a “scoundrel” as they refused to accept the European Commission president’s confirmation that a separate Scotland would be outside the EU.
John Swinney, the SNP Finance Minister, told a Lords committee that Jose Manuel Barroso’s statement it was “obvious” that an independent Scotland would have to apply from scratch was “without foundation”.
Despite holding no legal advice on the issue, he said there was nothing in EU treaties to support the president’s ruling that Scotland would lose the UK’s opt-out from the euro and the rebate negotiated by Baroness Thatcher.
But peers accused him of relying on “irrelevant” and “implausible” arguments, with one lord comparing the SNP’s objections to Mr Barroso’s reasoning to the “last refuge of a scoundrel”.
Lord Lipsey, a Labour peer, said it was “bizarre” the SNP expected them to believe a Scottish minister who had admitted taking no legal advice over the “considered” view of the commission president.
In another shift in policy, Mr Swinney claimed Scotland could negotiate membership in the “window” between a ‘yes’ vote in the autumn 2014 referendum and actual separation from the UK in 2016.
However, European Commission sources told the Daily Telegraph negotiations on EU membership could not begin until Scotland had become an independent country.
President Barroso wrote this week to the Lords economic affairs committee confirming a separate Scotland would "become a third country with respect to the EU and the treaties would no longer apply on its territory."
Mr Swinney claimed there was nothing in the EU’s treaties to support this view and it was significant the president had not specified the provisions under which Scotland would leave.
But Lord Lipsey pointed out EU treaties only apply to member states and it is therefore “not relevant whether there's a treaty reference because Scotland is not then a member state.”
“To retreat into clearly implausible references to what is referred to in the treaty to which you would no longer be a signatory because you are no longer part of the EU seems to me to be the last refuge of a scoundrel,” he said.
He questioned whether the SNP’s claims the president was wrong “can be sustained for a single second”.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, the former Tory Scottish Secretary, said the SNP was suggesting that the European Commission chief “doesn’t know what he’s talking about”.
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market, the committee’s chair, questioned why the SNP had not approached the commission on the issue and said its rejection of the president’s opinion seemed to have been dreamt up “overnight”.
But Mr Swinney said: “Essentially, I don't agree with the contents of President Barroso's letter for the reason that I do not see the basis within the treaties upon which that remark is founded.”
He claimed it was “interesting” that the president’s letter made reference to the section of EU treaties that deals with applications from prospective members but not to the part that deals with countries leaving."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9738312/SNP-acting-like-scoundrel-for-rejecting-Barrosos-EU-warning.html
Andrew Neil (Daily Politics) believes that the loss of Scotland from the UK would still leave a 'rump' UK of England, NI and Wales. This, he opines, would not cause any EU constitutional crisis for said 'rump'. He also thinks that Scotland would not be allowed [to leave] or prevented from re joining the EU should the split indeed cause a loss of membership.
ReplyDeleteOn the first point I disagree and on the second I tend to agree with Mr Neil.
One interesting proposition he made was who in a devolved Scotland would be the lender of last resort, being that the independent Scot Nats want to retain sterling. You guessed it - BOE.
Which would in effect be the devo max option in all but name. So should the Scottish banks fail again the dear old English taxpayers would have to pick up the tab.
All that nonsense in Belfast over flying the Union Jack is two years away from being irrelevent.On the other hand,if the Scots vote against independence,I think they should also abandon any concept of nationhood and become incorporated into England.In or out.One way or the other.Temeraire.
ReplyDeleteThe loyalist rebellion might be irrelevant,but not pointless. The protestants of Northern Ireland know full well what will happen to them but they still fight. Long ago the British government gave in to the republicans Marxists of the IRA. Eire has since been raped by the banks ans and flooded with immigrants and not a peep from them about that.
DeleteWhy is it 'nonsense'? The majority population in NI is British and wants to remain British and that is why they were protesting. If I understand you correctly,you would wish to abolish devolution. This is my opinion also but I highly doubt whether that would be possible now. John Major was wrong on many things but he did say that if devolution went ahead it would be a 'slippery slope' to separation.
ReplyDeleteThe majority population of NI will soon be Irish, but there will remain a large population of mainly Scottish stock. Antrim and Down have always looked to Scotland rather than to Ireland (the sea was easier to cross than the bogs). NI should be divided up between Scotland and Ireland with the Bann as the boundary between the two. British is a citizenship; not a nationality.
DeleteNI has two city regions, Belfast and Derry. half of the Derry city region is within Ireland.
Ireland is a country, Iverne is an island containing two nations - one Scottish, the other Irish. There is no reason why Belfast should be any different from Glasgow, which also has a large Roman Catholic population of Irish descent.
The Irish population of Belfast is not original, but the result of immigration following the potato famine.
If both an independent Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom are suddenly out of the EU and Scotland, as is likely, chooses to rejoin but the rest of the UK doesn't then we probably face controls at the border between England and Scotland.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I can also see the Welsh Assembly voting to rejoin but Wales would be unable to do this unless they, too, were independent. So would Welsh independence be next with only England out of the EU? The permutations are endless.
Good to see senior Tory MP John Redwood commenting on the English Democrats in his blog and comparing the party very favorably with the inconsistent, illogical, and all-at-sea Ukip.
ReplyDeleteTraditionally, local Tory associations have funded their local Liberal party, because of the Liberals' ability to attract the votes of disillusioned Labour voters. The Liberal Democrats are now so toxic that they can no longer fulfil that role for the Tories. However the English Democrats appeal is exactly to the disillusioned northern working class vote. Perhaps some of the Tory largesse will now be directed towards the English Democrats in Yorkshire and Lancashire. John Redwood is clearly aware of the potential of the English Democrats to take votes from Labour and Ukip in the North of England.
DeleteThe way things are going, in the light of the 2011 census, within a couple of decades there will be so many "New British" who won't care about England or the English.
ReplyDeleteOne of those New British, the leader of the Labour Party, is to give a speech today saying that the mass immigration boosted by his party is a good thing. He knows, however, that Labour did make some mistakes. They did not make any mistakes, Marxist New Labour knew exactly what they were doing and had two aims. The first was to fully multiculturalise England as part of their Marxist One World Revolution and the second was to achieve power on the back of the immigrant vote so that they could carry this through.
I wonder whether Mr Milliband has already arranged to be buried with his father near to Karl Marx in Highgate Cemetery. Marxism is totally un-english and has no popular support but this does not worry them as long as the English working classes continue to put their cross next to the red rosette candidate.
Last night BBC Panorama suprised us by showing us the plight of the indigenous English homeless in Croydon. One family were housed in a vermin-infested hostel run by Africans who could barely speak English. Another homeless person was an ex-investment banker kicked out of the USA for going bankrupt and thus unable to support himself. He was sleeping in the park and queueing up at the soup kitchens. He was the only Englishman in the queue. The rest were all foreign but unlike him had not been booted out for being penniless.
One wonders whether the Labour voting masses will ever cotton on to the fact that their Marxist party doesn't give a damn about them and the rest of the English (not worth saving according to Jack Straw) and would be quite happy to see them all jobless and homeless. This is the party founded to help their great-grandfathers, grandfathers and just about their fathers but now really looks forward to the day when they will be history.
Will the census returns finally wake up the terminally depressed English? Will that Panorama programme make them realise that the aim is to see them rubbished and disposed of? Wasn't it Croydon where Emma West issued her famous cri de coeur on behalf of the English? She is now languishing in jail and her child has been taken from her probably never to be returned to this dangerous extremist.
Can we really believe that this has happened to England and the English? Surely the tide must turn soon.
Emma West has ben illegally incarcerated for 'psychological profiling'. Really she is being held because she will not plead guilty to the crime of inciting racial hatred; or daring to tell the truth. She was bad mannered, rude and swore in front of a child. Her son has since been taken into care and her life ruined.
DeleteIt should be a public outrage, irrespective of opinion on her views or how she expressed them that she is in gaol. She has already served a considerable sentence, whereas the likes of Margaret Moran MP has lied and thieved to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds and has merely received a supervision order.
Miliband's father after fleeing to England from the nazis stated how he hated the nationalistic English and how he wished we would lose the war -even after coming here for safe haven! He then spent the rest of his life hacking at the foundations of our civilised society with the filth of communism which his sons' have continued with vigour.Last night Ed Miliband was on tv at the Sun nespaper's celebration of British service men and women who had shown bravery and dignity in their duty and loss. When the camera fleetingly lighted on him his expression showed he couldn't care less about these men and women and their fatherless children whom he willingly despathed to their fates.
The Emma Wast saga is just one example of evidence of the shoddy treatment of the English.
DeleteI possess a Post Graduate Diploma in Human Resource Management and worked in HR for a while and to be quite honest the amount of complaints about anti-white racism/anti English bias were enormous, however the directors instructed us to ignore all the complaints or deny discrimination even when the evidence was overwhelming. We are dealing a nasty and vexatious defendants. I no longer work in HR and have since become a director of a furniture manufacturer. HR is now a tool to destroy the white English.
I am willing to write a CPR Part 35 Expert Witness Report to be used as evidence in any future International Court of Human Rights against the UK Government.
There is now so much evidence pointing to the systematic and deliberate genocide of the English. One can tell the politicians have not made best use of our existing pool (indigenous) people. The HR profession (no longer reputable) is now full of man hating feminists and the Finance Directors are always taking thee pee our of HR, all for good reason.
Frances (MCIPD)
Frances, Please email me direct on robintilbrook@aol.com to discuss this.
DeleteVery interested to read about Ed Milliband's father. It is understandable why his grandfather was kept out of the country. Since the New World Order people started up shortly after that they were determined to ensure that we were unable to keep anybody out, however hostile they might be to us. However, what I don't understand is why Ed's father was not interned by us during the War as an enemy alien. Certainly, you can understand why Ed looks so uncomfortable on Remembrance Sunday, especially when he is greeted by the steely gaze of the Queen ( if only we knew what she was thinking ) and Prince Philip. They certainly must have read about his father and grandfather at the time or will have been notified by somebody we assume.
DeleteAs regards Emma West, it is worse than I thought. You describe the Milliband brothers as communists, not Marxists and what we are seeing in this country now is Soviet bloc style incarceration. It was bad enough that Tommy Robinson of the EDL is in jail on trumped up charges but Emma West's case is worse. From what you are saying it looks as if she is refusing re-education and so they are trying to prove that she must be insane because she does not agree with the multiculturalisation of England. Once they can allegedly prove this then they can lock her up for being psychologically unstable.
How does that place the rest of us?, are all nationalists now going to be deemed to be nutcases because they do not go along with Marxist Big Brother and if they refuse re-education? This would put us one step away from the gulags.
Incidentally, the Norwegian Defence League, who are predicting civil war against their sharia determined muslim enclaves in ten to twenty years is now growing. Only a matter of time before their leader is locked up as well as anybody criticising Islam or multiculturalism in post Breivik jittery police state Norway must be silenced.
You may not welcome UKIP's poll result of 14% but I sense that it is not all down to gay marriage and Cameron's desperate bid to take the gay vote away from the Left but also to the census results. I see that Ian Hislop on Have I got news for you was quite forthright and spoke of black clouds drifting across Britain. I am surprised that his court appearance has not already been arranged. But Ian is an old pro at court appearances so is probably not too worried. He certainly seems to be very knowledgeable about and interested in British history; the history our school kids are no longer taught about. They know nothing of World War 2 apart from the fate of the Jews.
More information about Emma West Please
ReplyDeleteLook on you tube for the video of her outburst. There is much info about her on the internet. What is interesting to note is that there are hundreds of videos of anti white outbursts that have received no police attention. Her trial has been adjourned for the third time.
DeleteShe will not plead guilty so the establishment will not give her a jury trial because it will draw too much attention and without a rigged jury she will not be convicted. She must be broken down down so that the interminable cycle of adjournmets force her to give in and plead guilty so that she can see her son.
Wecome to England.
This is not England, well not since the Civil War at least. This is the Nazi-dominated Poland that Ed Milliband's father fled from or the communist Poland that followed it. The Poles are still pre-occupied with a witch hunt against those who did it to them. Why waste time, could we not start our witch hunt now?
DeleteSorry to point out your spelling mistake in the last line but it made me think of the camps at Calais where the England-raiders were held. "We come to England" they said through their big cheesy grins, yes and they come and come and come and come until England goes pop.
The impending Scottish vote brings forth a good number of possible outcomes. Some of which are to our advantage. If the people vote 'Yes', then there is a good chance that the resulting split will leave us outside the EU. With that in mind, would it be prudent for the anti-EU parties to all 'covertly' push for the 'Yes' vote in Scotland ?.
ReplyDeleteWho cares that we would stop funding the Scots to the tune of £32bn a year ?. They will have the remains of the North Sea oil to keep them going and with all those hills, they can build a huge wind farm and sell the surplus energy to make money.
The one question that begs an answer however, what to do with all the Scottish living in England ?. Do we send them back across the border ?.
Anonymous, the other anti-EU parties are all rabidly Unionist and would sooner see England split than the UK. Click here for a good example >>> http://www.ukip.org/regions
DeleteAs for sending anyone back across the border; no that wouldn't be something we would contemplate!
Farewell to Sir Patrick Moore, a true Englishman
ReplyDeleteSunday, 9th December 2012
The Party [UKIP] mourns the death of Sir Patrick Moore, one of the country's best loved broadcasters, a world-renowned astronomer, virtuoso xylophonist and long-time UKIP supporter.
Sir Patrick was an implacable opponent of European integration. Having founded his own United Country Party in the 1970s he became a supporter of UKIP during the 1990s, frequently speaking at public meetings to great acclaim.
In 2001 he supported Douglas Denny in the Chichester constituency, and he remained close to the party in his local area until his death.
Nigel Farage said today: "Since I first met Sir Patrick when he dominated a UKIP stage in 1999, he has been a friend and an inspiration. Not only to us in UKIP, but across the country and around the world.
"Today we have seen the passing of a true great, and a true Englishman".
That shows what Nigel Farage knows about anything; Sir Patrick Moore was an Ulsterman. Farage couldn't even be bothered to get his facts right, which is an insult to Sir Patrick's memory.
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If Sir Patrick has Ulster/Irish roots so has the journalist Charles Moore who wrote a year or so ago that he was mourning the end of a thousand years of England, asking can England ever be the same with so many foreigners living here. At least Ulstermen put up a fight. They were used by the Americans to man the frontier as they were tougher even than the Germans or the Scots. Their cry is no surrender. Let's hope the docile and seemingly cowardly English start shouting that soon.
DeleteSir Patrick was accused by some liberal do-gooding person writing to the Radio Times of racism last year. Methinks it was a woman but I could be wrong. This was because Sir Patrick's girlfriend was killed during the blitz and he had loved her so much that he had never been able to marry another. He said that, try as he could, he could never like or forgive the Germans. The heavens fell in on him of course. It was, in any case, xenophobia if anything rather than racism. You can't be racist about your own race. Of course if a German had said that about the British because of the Dresden or Hamburg firestorms that would have been ok because only we are horrid.